Here is another debate on Reason and Faith. Here I am claiming that inherent nature of human beings necessiates having faith on more knowledgeable and trustworthy source. This is what happens in any science. I argued that a student of quantum physics would have faith on whatever Einstein said on the subject. Here is a debate with Dan and David.
By Abdul Baqi
Dan
You wrote... Actually I am not sure that I fully understand in which decisions you think you should use reason, and in which decision you think you are allowed not to use reason if you do not feel like it, and in which decisions you think you should not use it.
these are difficult questions a theist need to solve when adhering to a religion.
When the father of a four-year kid instructs his son not to eat too much chocolate, and the kid using his limited reason could not find any reason behind this restriction, then the kid might brand this instruction as a 'dogma' not based on (the kid's) reason. However, the father will know that although the instruction seems 'authoritative' yet it is for the benefit of the kid.
When junior physics students in college study quantum physics, where they are exposed to very complicated matters occurring at atomic level where they can not see, yet they use their reason -not to fully understand quantum theory- rather to 'have faith on Einstein' and this faith made them feel happy about quantum physics. If I say that it is dogma to impose on the junior students of physics such a theory without letting them 'fully' understand the theory, will I be right in my claim? I think science has an element of faith as well as reason. I have a 'faith' that atom has nucleus and has electrons circling it. I have been taught so in my high school and I trusted the text book and the teacher and I feel happy about it. Whatever reason I have, I found no problem in holding this belief till now.
If that was true in case of quantum physics as a subject, and it's text book as an 'authoritative' book, and the professor as a person who explains that book, if that was true, why shouldn't I have belief in God as a subject where a textbook like Koran talking about him and a teacher like Muhammad explaining this book. Why I would not consider it dogma in case of textbook of quantum physics and I would consider it dogma in case of Bible or Koran? Why an authoritative words from the mouth of Einstein or Newton would not be dogma and it would be if the words are coming from the mouth of Muhammad or Jesus or Moses.
Moreover, people vary in their power of reasoning, as students in physics would vary. There will be some sharp intelligent students who will understand 80% of quantum mechanics and there would be those who will understand only 30%..however, the one who understood 30% by his/her reason can compliment the rest 70% by having 'blind' faith on whatever his/her teacher said and her textbook said..the one who understood 80% would still need to have faith on the rest 20%, but both would need to have 'faith' where 'their' reason can not 'yet' reach...
I think the inherent nature of belief in God -and hence the nature of philosophy of religion- necessitates the truth seeker to exercise his/her reason to a point where he need to have 'blind' faith..People will vary, however, on this particular point based on their power of reason.
Abdul
by David McKeegan - Sunday, 20 May 2007, 10:00 AM
Abdul, your quantum physics text book is the result of years of research and experimentation - experiments that can be replicated and observed by other researchers and students. The conclusions and theories drawn from those observations are not dogmatic - they are always open to revision in the light of new data, or more satisfyingly explanatory theories. That's when a new quantum physics text book will be written.
If the author of your quantum physics text book claimed that the text was revealed to him by an angel during a series of epileptic fits, and that therefore it could never be questioned or revised, then the book would never have been published, let alone studied at universities.
Your comparison is fallacious.
by Abdul Baqi Sharaf - Sunday, 20 May 2007, 10:15 AM
David..
Since the author of physics books are human being who are not omniscient, so you would expect them to revise and correct mistakes which would not be the case for books of God who is omniscient and hence does not need to correct previous mistakes and hence can be authoritative..
However, in my posting I wanted to convince that even in Science students would believe based on blind faith on those scientists, and I think that is what it should be otherwise no one will know anything..In other words if we tell children science classes that do not adopt any idea of science without fully getting satisfied by your reason that it is OK, then the world will end up with skeptics who start to doubt everything...
By Dan
Hi
Thanks for your posts, this is a very interesting discussion.
Here are a couple of paragraphs just to clarify my previous post.
1) Through discussing with the rational intelligent egoist, I learn and become a better person myself, not - of course - by copying him, but by deepening my understanding of the right way to be, by seeing the flaws in my and his understandings, and reaching a deeper better understanding. In the case of the paedophile I do not learn through engaging with him – he has no understanding or point of view from which I can learn. The doctor who engages with the paedophile is not becoming a better person himself thereby, but he does learn thereby how to treat the paedophile to reduce the chances of him re-offending. This is thus a different case to that of discussing with the intelligent egoist, for it involves focusing on influencing another (the paedophile), as opposed to becoming a better person oneself (a distinction Robert has already said he agrees with, and which seems reasonably uncontentious).
2) Reason will never tell you to not use reason. Thus if there is any place that you choose not to use reason, then that decision to not use reason is made by something other than reason. What is it that makes that decision? It seems likely to be desires, insecurities, whim etc.. Thus it is not to be trusted. It might urge abandoning reason precisely when you should be using it. Of course, there may be areas where it is impossible to use reason. One can use reason in understanding music, but will not be able to compose a great symphony solely through the use of reason. But in this case you are not choosing not to use reason, rather it is not even an option, to use reason to compose a great symphony. There will be aspects of faith where this is the case too, where reason has nothing to say one way or the other, so where you have no alternative but to use something other than reason. Thus for instance it might be that reason can help you establish which conception of God is coherent, but reason cannot tell you whether to have faith or not. If this is the case then fine, you are not choosing not to use reason in choosing to have faith. It is the decision to choose to not use reason, when you could use reason, that I suggest is always wrong.
Best wishes
Dan
By Abdul Baqi
Dan You wrote.. [first] Reason will never tell you to not use reason... [and last] It is the decision to choose to not use reason, when you could use reason, that I suggest is always wrong.
I think these are very well articulated thoughts...through your discussion you are revealing the inherent weakness of reason in certain areas..can one then draw a borderline and say that here the reason stops..and something else should start? and that the reason itself would ask you to march forward with this something else, and not marching forward with this something else would be against the instruction of reason?
of course being a theist I would advocate that this something else is faith and the knowledge which only God can know and which has been revealed to mankind through scriptures..
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Do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be superior (in victory) if you are indeed (true) believers. [Quran aal-Imran (3):139]
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